I'm not familiar with horse competitions, but don't you stand to win cash prizes for doing them? If that's the case, then I could see someone
paying a substantially higher price for a competition-ready animal. But in dogs, no way am I going to spend $1500 for a dog that is going to cost me several
more thousand in the following years for showing, pulling, trialing, health testing, etc. A nice-quality puppy may have a shorter way to go to get their
titles, but its still as much the breeder's success as mine, so its a win-win situation, as Steph pointed out. No sense in putting the new owner into hock
paying for that puppy. Smart placements are already worth their weight in kibble. ;)
0 Kudo
What does one expect to pay for pups?
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 GravityAPBTs |
#21 | |||
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Gaff Champion
06/16/08 5:14 PM |
Lindsay
Last Edited By: GravityAPBTs 06/16/08 5:16 PM.
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trolldoll1 |
#22 | |||
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Gaff Grand Champ
06/16/08 5:25 PM Master of her Universe |
Yes ma'am... I have won quite a bit on that $3,500 horse! He more than paid for himself... there are women that win 6 figures competing, training and
selling barrel horses.
That's funny you mention that... my parents just don't get why I went from horses to dogs... dogs are nothing but a hole in the pocket! My horse was a money winner. --
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GravityAPBTs |
#23 | |||
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Gaff Champion
06/16/08 7:55 PM |
Maybe you should've stayed in horses to pay for the dogs. ;)
Lindsay
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trolldoll1 |
#24 | |||
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Gaff Grand Champ
06/17/08 10:29 AM Master of her Universe |
Lindsay, I'm seriously looking for a new barrel prospect... I think in a couple of years I'll be able to start traveling again. I still have my horse
trailer and my Dad has a nice new Dodge I can use ;-) I want to see if gas prices ever go down again.
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knowit4214 |
#25 | |||
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Gaff Junior
06/17/08 12:11 PM |
Price is a hard question to answer… In my opinion… What a pup is worth has all to do with you… Are you looking for a pet? You can acquire a pet for free… Are
you looking for a dog to put titles on? If you shop around you can find a number of breeders that will give you a dog if you will guarantee titles will be
achieved…
An educated breeder will likely never sell you their best stuff… So what you buy is probably going to be second or third string… What is that going to be worth to you? How important is that one pup going to be? Genetics have great value to those that need them… I think it comes down to how bad you think you need what that pup has to offer… Strength of pedigree, type, structure… how available is that dogs gene pool? If you have a vision of what a perfect APBT is, and this pup seems to have what you "NEED" to get there… If your family can afford it…. thousands of $ would be acceptable… If you don't need it bad enough… I suggest looking for the free option… I think you would be surprised how many breeders would work with you on price…. Dan |
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CPWdirector |
#26 | |||
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Gaff Grand Champ
06/17/08 3:29 PM |
I agree with a lot of what has already been said here. Many times the price you pay has a lot to do with you...and the kind of home you will give a puppy.
Most of the time someone who is a "proven show home" also has their own breeding program, so they are probably not looking to buy a show prospect
when, in all reality, they are probably trying to produce their own.
And many times people set their own idea of how much they would pay for a certain pup out of a certain bloodline. I have been given some absolutely wonderful dogs, and I have paid way too much for some wonderful pets. After being in dogs for this long, I now have a different idea of how much I am willing to spend on a pup. Sometimes when you are newer to the breed you have to spend a little more to get better quality...sort of proving yourself with cash. One thing I don't necessarily agree with is the statement that "An educated breeder will likely never sell you their best stuff". some time ago a wise person said to me that a breeder does not only get known for what they keep, but also what they let go. I like to think that an educated breeder puts puppies on the best possible situations, and can evaluate the needs of the home and the quality of the puppy. I also think an educated puppy buyer looks for a breeder who consistently produces the type of dog they are looking for....almost like "cookie-cutter" litters. Not necessarily dogs that can earn Ch and Grands, but dogs who you can almost tell are from that breeder or bloodline. As a breeder, its my feeling that sometimes it is a very wise decision to look past the cash in your pocket to put a pup in a home where it will have a happy life, and possibly do something positive for the breed ( outside the show ring or whelping box). I can spend that cash awful quick, but a loving, permanent home will last a lifetime. Just my two cents. What kind of person gets joy out of the suffering and misfortune of others? Just because you think people are talking about you, doesn't make it so....it just means your paranoid! |
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knowit4214 |
#27 | |||
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Gaff Junior
06/17/08 9:23 PM |
Of course, quality of placement comes first… I would hope that that would be a given… I would like to clarify my position on this point… "An educated breeder will likely never sell you their best stuff" It was more in reference to breeding stock… A breeder that can truly see what they have, will rarely sell their best stock… And if they do they usually will ask to be paid handsomely for it… As they should… As far as your point… "Some time ago a wise person said to me that a breeder does not only get known for what they keep, but also what they let go." To me, this is also true and a great point… But does not contradict my point… A breeder gets judged on their second and third string even more harshly… Too many people think that because they took third pick from a breeding that they should have got a perfect dog… With all this being said… I think what you pay for a pup, has all to do with the value YOU place on it… It has to be worth it to you and your plans…. Hope you find some wisdom in the opinion…
Dan |
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CPWdirector |
#28 | |||
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Gaff Grand Champ
06/17/08 9:50 PM |
knowit4214 wrote:
What kind of person gets joy out of the suffering and misfortune of others? Just because you think people are talking about you, doesn't make it so....it just means your paranoid! |
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HoLLyWood912 |
#29 | |||
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Gaff Senior
06/17/08 9:55 PM |
OoH DiD someone say THEM BLUE BOYZ!!!!!!
 I HAVE BEEN WANTING A PUP OFF THAT WHITE MALE THAT JUST FOUND HIS WAY OUT OF THE BACKYARD . yOU KNOW HE THROWZ NOTHING BUT BLUEZ 
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 Karen and Cuddles |
#30 | |||
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Gaff Champion
06/18/08 8:47 AM |
I wouldn't pay for a dog. My best dogs have been gifts and I think it depends on the breeders you hang around with. There are breeders with contracts that
are amazingly complex and demand puppies and litters back etc. Why would anyone want to deal with that? Because it is winning? That's skewed
Last Edited By: Jenn Sherman 06/18/08 7:29 PM.
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KimJayPits |
#31 | |||
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Gaff Grand Champ
06/18/08 12:22 PM |
I wanted to comment on the why someone would place their first pick. I have gotten first pick bitches out of 2 litters. Breeders were keeping first pick males
and did not want to keep 2 dogs.
One was a very good friend of mine and we live somewhat close, we see each other often and both breeders knew I would care for them and show them to their fullest potential. One was sold to me one was given to me. |
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trolldoll1 |
#32 | |||
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Gaff Grand Champ
06/18/08 12:50 PM Master of her Universe |
Kim, there is a difference between selling your first pick and co-owning or placing with someone! In my mind there is, anyhoo. We all have time and space
constraints...
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KimJayPits |
#33 | |||
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Gaff Grand Champ
06/18/08 12:55 PM |
True Stephanie.....
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HotRodKennel |
#34 | |||
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Gaff Champion
06/19/08 7:00 PM |
Nice input from everyone. I'm glad I am not the only person who thinks that $1000 AND a co-own is
waaaaay too much!! I had someone offer me that for a MALE. What good is it to co-own AND give $1000 for a male??? Maybe a female (and even then she better be
spectacular!!) but not a male IMHO.
I am VERY fair on my puppy prices and even give HUGE discounts for proven show/working homes. I have even given dogs away. And I still have a HARD time selling my pups/dogs. I have 2 females out of my last litter I can't even give away (well I can give them away, but my time and $$$ put into them so far is at least worth a little bit... and I do mean a little bit)!!! I don't know if the economy is THAT bad or what!!! I am a proven show/working home and I have offers left and right for free dogs (Am Staffs and APBTs). I don't want anymore BIG dogs!!  If someone has a nice Frenchie that they would want to place in a show home...
I'M AVAILABLE!!
And the whole thing of comparing barrel horses to dogs is way off!!! If the dogs could make us some money back in the show ring then it would be more of a comparison. My barrel horse was free!!! I put all the training into him myself. He did wonders for me for a while. But because of his tremendous fear of the trailer (it takes an hour or more to load him) my barrel racing days are over. I really would like to get back into it. I will push at getting a new horse if the gas prices come down. Maybe someone will trade me horses?!?! 
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Faze10 |
#35 | |||
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Gaff Champion
06/20/08 9:00 AM |
I tend to disagree on the whole co-own issue, only because co-ownerships can be so different from breeder to breeder.
A male may be co-owned if a breeder and said buyer plan to campaign a dog if it turns out to have that potential. The breeder and buyer then split the costs of showing the dog while it is campaigning. If the dog does not turn out as far as Top Ten is concerned, then the co ownership is then void and the breeder then signs the dog over to buyer. Buyer now has spent $1000 for 1st pick puppy, which most have deemed as fair. After the dog is finished its show career the co-ownership then may be over as well. To me this is fair. Some will argue that the breeder does not need to be on the registration as co-owner to show said dog, but I could understand the breeder wanting his or her name on the dog. Another reason for co-ownerships are to protect a sold dog from being bred, or at least from being bred and papers being available. The co-ownership may state until said dog is completely health tested or has earned specific titles and reached a specific age, or hopefully all three ;). This is fair since the UKC does not offer limited registration. Co-ownerships are not always for the life of the dog, in these cases I feel that paying on a co-ownership is fair. If the dog lives with you, you feed it, you wash it, and you use the lil baggies to pick up its poop and don't get paid for it, that's your dog. Co-ownerships are not an issue until breeding time, and the buyer has just as much control as the breeder since the dog is after all CO-OWNED. J I have heard horror stories but just like a breeder does research and asks for references on you the buyer, best believe I want some testimonials from buyers about the breeder before I buy as well. I have never co-owned a dog but I can see spending the money in the above-mentioned situations. |
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trolldoll1 |
#36 | |||
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Gaff Grand Champ
06/20/08 11:56 AM Master of her Universe |
I'm not opposed to co-ownerships at all. I think they can be very useful... I may be entering one myself here soon.
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KimJayPits |
#37 | |||
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Gaff Grand Champ
06/20/08 12:36 PM |
I have nothing against co ownerships either.As long as you and the breeder have teh same vision, co ownerships can be great. I co own 2 of my dogs and the
breeder will sign off after the dog is titled and health tested. That is not a big deal to me.
I paid 600 for one and nothing for the other. I just refuse to pay 1,000 plus for a dog that is not totally mine even if the breeder will sign off later down the road. I am putting all that money into showing, time for training etc I would hope my breeder would take that into consideration when selling me a puppy.I am out there ( quite often) promoting somebody elses dog PLUS I am giving them a great pet home. Not all show people can say the latter...LOL. I especially would not pay that for a male because I know most breeders want a number of uses on the stud or unlimited. Unless you live next door that is a real pain in the rear IMO. I don't pay for puppies based on show titles etc. If it is what I want I will get it, even if the parenst have never stepped foot in the ring. It's whether that puppy has the potential to be a good specimen of the breed. That is how I measure the worth of a puppy. My only 2 co owns are with a good friend that lives close. If she wants to use my male it will not be a big inconvenience for either of us. I am not saying every breeder should give their dogs away either but I think for someone who has been showing has proven themselves to be dependable, honest and a great home...they should eb given a break on prices. I have to say it is quite a honor when a breeder practically gives you a dog, and not to mention their first pick. Anyway, to each their own. Not trying to knock anybody. As long as the buyer and breeder are happy with the agreement, that is what counts. 
These are just my views. I have paid as much as 1,500 ( no co own) and IMO it was worth every penny!
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Faze10 |
#38 | |||
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Gaff Champion
06/20/08 1:30 PM |
KimJayPits wrote:
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Kelley KS ASTs |
#39 | |||
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Gaff Champion
06/20/08 1:47 PM |
A lot depends on the circumstances, but all show potential puppies are place on co-ownership agreements, without the pymirad scheme, breeding is mutally
agreed upon, I do not require showing unless you want breed the dog, but even then I have and will show the dog myself at my expense. I do require health
testing and titling, including CGC or TT, if the dog is to be bred, and a obedience/agility/rally title would be super duper, but not required. I do not
require a dog to be show every year or a certain amount of shows. I don't require a UKC titling, because none of my puppies will ever be dual registered
ever again, but if the owner wants to thats cool!
Kelley Platt
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SoHoAPBT |
#40 | |||
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Gaff Champion
06/20/08 8:53 PM |
First off, I would never expect to get anything for free. There are some instances that are different. Like a friend giving you a puppy. Or maybe a breeder that gives someone a dog that has bought a dog from them before and titled it. But I would never expect a breeder that I had never delt with to give me a puppy just because I had titled this many dogs or Top Ten'ed a dog. I really dont get this attitude of: Im doing you a favor by showing your dog and taking care of it. Now lets all be real. How many of us titled our dogs FOR the breeder?.......Jeopardy song playing........ My guess is not too many. We title our dogs for different reasons: some of us simpily because we like to show, some because our contracts say we have to, and whether anyone wants to admit it some people put titles on their dogs so that when they breed it they can charge more for puppies(sorry but someone had to say it eventually). If you dont want to take care of a dog, dont get one. And I cant think of too many other things in life that work that way. I know Coach isnt giving me anything for free just because I carry their bags, even though Im doing them a favor by advertising for them for free. Very well said Faze10. The fact of the matter is, if someone wants something then they will do what they have to do to get it. I know when I got London, I
had my mind made up. I would have paid twice what the breeder was asking to get her(he kicks his self everytime I tell him that, lol), while someone else may
not have paid what I paid for her let alone what I was willing to pay. I have never heard of any breeder twisting someones arm to enter a co-own or pay a
certain amount of money for a puppy. The breeder sets their stipulations and the buyer either takes it or leaves it. I would bet that the breeder that
sells/sold a puppy for $1000 on a co-own could have sold it for twice that much, still on a co-own, to someone else that just had to have it. And like Faze10
said what is the difference in paying $1000 for a male on a co-own vs out right ownership where the breeder keeps stud rights? Both of my boys I own out right
but the breeder retained stud rights on them. I know if my boys breeder wanted to co-own and pay for and/or show the dog for 6 months out of the year I sure
wouldnt be *itching about it. And I would think that there would be a contract in place to protect the breeder and the new co-owner anyways.
Amanda Stout
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