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 baytown |
Staffy standard |
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Gaff Junior
07/01/08 10:08 PM |
I know this is a board for the APBT, but some of you own, and show
SBTs. Please read the standard. EARS - The
rose or half-pricked ears are not large.
why are judges giving breed to dogs with Serious Faults? If you are a judge and read this board, could you pleas provide me with an explanation of when it is OK to put up a dog of any breed with a serious fault, when you have other dogs in the ring without them?
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sbtbeth |
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Gaff Grand Champ
07/01/08 10:09 PM |
Shawn do you have pictures of said dog with FULL drop or Full prick ears???
you can e-mail me in privet if you wish. geminiast@yahoo.com Also I find many judges do not really READ the standered or at least not major faults. I have seen some very faulted APBT win in the ring LOL. what can you do. after the show you can discuss the issues with the judge and try to explain the standered. American Staffordshire Terrier and
Last Edited By: sbtbeth 07/01/08 10:32 PM.
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trolldoll1 |
#2 | |||
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Administration
Gaff Grand Champ
07/02/08 12:15 AM Master of her Universe |
Beth, you are the only person I know that makes spelling the word "standard" more difficult than it really is ;) LOL.
I didn't have to look far to find a dog with a serious fault, pics are posted in the gallery... --
Last Edited By: trolldoll1 07/02/08 12:17 AM.
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Safety Engineer |
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Gaff Junior
07/02/08 12:58 AM |
I just checked the ear pics and I see what you mean. I also would like to know why the bite and tails are overlooked in the UKC ring in this breed as well.
I have seen huge underbites and kinks take group placements. I was told they are not considered faults in SBT in UKC. I have not checked the breed standard
(UKC), but as a person eventually planning to add a staffy to my family, I would like to understand and hear the thoughts of others on these things I consider
serious faults, faults I would never breed.?
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tabbertkennels |
#4 | |||
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Gaff Senior
07/02/08 7:44 AM |
General Appearance
The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a smooth coated dog that possesses great strength for its size. Although muscular, it is active
and agile.
Characteristics
This breed has indomitable courage, high intelligence and tenacity. Coupled with its affection for its friends, and children in
particular, its quietness and trustworthy stability make it an all-purpose dog.
Head
The head is short and deep throughout with a distinct stop.
SKULL - The skull is broad and the cheek muscles are very pronounced. MUZZLE - the foreface is short, with strong jaws and clean, tight lips. TEETH - A full complement of strong, white teeth meet in a scissors bite; the outer side of the lower incisors touching the inner side of the upper incisors. Serious Faults: Badly overshot or undershot bites. EYES - Dark eyes are preferred, but may bear some relation to coat color. The round, medium size eyes are set on to look straight ahead. Dark eye rims are preferred. NOSE - The nose is black. EARS - The rose or half-pricked ears are not large. Serious Faults: Full drop ear. Full prick ear. Neck
The muscular, rather short neck is clean in outline and widens gradually toward the shoulders.
Forequarters
The shoulders are well laid back.
FORELEGS - The straight, well-boned forelegs are set rather far apart at the shoulders, but show no looseness at the elbow. The pasterns are strong, and the feet turn out slightly. Body
The body is close-coupled with a broad, deep chest and well-sprung ribs. The loins are fairly light and the topline is
level.
Hindquarters
The hindquarters are well-muscled.
HIND LEGS - The stifles are well-bent. The hocks are well let down. The legs are parallel when viewed from behind. Dewclaws are generally removed from the hind legs. Feet
The strong, medium-sized feet are well padded.
Tail
The medium-length tail is not docked. It is low-set, carried rather low and tapers to a point. It does not curl much, and may be
likened to an old-fashioned pump handle.
Faults: Too long or badly curled tail. Coat
The short, smooth coat is close to the skin. Neither the coat nor the whiskers are to be trimmed.
Color
Acceptable colors include red, fawn, white, black, any shade of brindle, and blue, with or without white.
Serious Faults: Black and tan or liver. Height & Weight
Height, measured at the shoulders, ranges from 14 to 16 inches. Weight ranges are as follows: dogs, 28 to 38 pounds; bitches, 24
to 34 pounds. Weight depends on the height of the individual dog.
Gait
The free, powerful, agile movement is accomplished with an economy of effort. When viewed from the front or the rear, the legs
move parallel. There is a noticeable drive from the hind legs.
Disqualifications
Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid. Viciousness or extreme shyness. Albinism.
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tabbertkennels |
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Gaff Senior
07/02/08 7:46 AM |
Just look at the standard yourself.It sais bad underbite and overbites are serious faults.So no matter what someones opinion is its still a serious fault.This
was taken off UKC website
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sbtbeth |
#6 | |||
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Gaff Grand Champ
07/02/08 9:07 AM |
OMG STEPH you know I do not read before I post LOL...
I need a spell check button but I doubt I would use it if it was there. American Staffordshire Terrier and
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sbtbeth |
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Gaff Grand Champ
07/02/08 9:14 AM |
the standard used to say slightly over or undershot was acceptable.
they much have changed it. I checked both AKC and UKC. And both UKC and AKC say the same about the ears EARS - The rose or half-pricked ears are not large. Serious Faults: Full drop ear. Full prick ear. But judge is only as good as their knowledge. the judges that put up the dog in question must have liked it. I do believe this dog won under more then 1 judge on that weekend. (Steph is that better spelling for you LOL??) American Staffordshire Terrier and
Last Edited By: sbtbeth 07/02/08 9:16 AM.
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Safety Engineer |
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Gaff Junior
07/02/08 6:55 PM |
Thanks for posting the new standard!
STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER Terrier Group Official U.K.C. Breed Standard Copyright 1992, United Kennel Club, Inc. Revised April 15, 2007 This would make more sense to me since the last time I checked this standard was Oct. 2006 (the old standard was in affect). I'm VERY glad UKC changed it. Still doesn't change the amount of dogs out there showing with these SERIOUS faults though. What a shame. |
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Tzar KTG |
#9 | |||
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Gaff Junior
07/02/08 7:52 PM |
There are dogs in every breed that are very successful in U.K.C.'s top ten that someone can argue that those animals have serious faults. A while back I
asked a U.K.C. judge why he put up an APBT in the grand class that in my opinion was the most horrible disgusting specimen I had ever seen and his response
was..."I can only judge what is put in front of me".
Obviously three of the four judges this dog was shown to agreed that he had merit. If you disagree that is great, take it off the message board get a better dog into the show ring and beat him. If you do not like what judge's are putting up then keep showing them something better. "Those that breed pastel dogs should not cast stones." |
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arukcapbt |
#10 | |||
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Gaff Grand Champ
07/02/08 8:04 PM |
I think a lot of the older judges concentrate more on the over all functionality, balance, and breed type rather than dismissing a Staffy Bull because of its
ears or bite. From what I have been told and the material I've read by people that have been in Staffy Bulls for a long time especially the UK judges is
that they would rather see a correct balanced Staffy Bull with a slight under bite or flush bite, than an overdone or rangy dog with a perfect scissor. Flush
bites are not even mentioned in the SBT standard. Like Beth stated, these bites were not even considered a fault in the origional standards. The current
standards say "badly" undershot or overshot is a major fault therefore minor over or under is not a major fault. A slightly under shot bite can be
and is just as functional as a true scissor. Just like a level bite is. An underbite is actually desired in the old bulldogs that created the bull and terrier
crosses. Bites actually weren't that important when this breed was being created and for a long time afterwards. The bite has to really be bad for the dog
not to be able to function for its purpose of biting and hanging on. I beleive thats why the standard states "BADLY". Just like in APBT's and any
other breed being shown; bites, tails, and ears are easy for the average joe to pick out. There is much more to a dog in most knowledgeable judges eyes.
I haven't seen the dog in question but I guess the judges liked something about it. What gallery are the photos in?
Last Edited By: arukcapbt 07/02/08 11:21 PM.
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baytown |
#11 | |||
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Gaff Junior
07/03/08 9:20 AM |
KTG!
I was wondering if you have a website, I see that you post often, and I would like to she what dogs you have. bloodline etc. This post was not about wins or loses. It was about judging dogs and the lack of reading of standards. I have missed most of the shows this year and my staffy has 23 pts, which I am sure will make her a top ten finalist. Big Deal! If you read my post again, I didn't say if the dog was a bitch or male, nor did I state which show I was talking about etc. You are a criminal, so I meant criminal lawyer or judge. right? you should understand more then most. |
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sbtbeth |
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Gaff Grand Champ
07/03/08 9:26 AM |
in AKC we have a tone of FAT top winning dogs like 1/2 of the top 20 dogs . It makes me sick at this is a WORKING breed and should be fit. It
state this fact in a few places so you would think judges would not be putting up some of the FAT PIGS I have seen win I have seen many of these dogs in person and they are not the best of the best as far as stucture either.. so there is a pretty good group of us that try to have the fit in standard dogs and we all go to shows together to try to get the judges to see what a well BALANCED SBT should look like LOL. from the Standard possesses great strength for its size. Although muscular, it is active and agile. The hindquarters are well-muscled. The body is close-coupled with a broad, deep chest and well-sprung ribs. The loins are fairly light and the topline is level. Height & Weight
Height, measured at the shoulders, ranges from 14 to 16 inches. Weight ranges are as follows: dogs, 28 to 38 pounds; bitches, 24
to 34 pounds. Weight depends on the height of the individual dog
American Staffordshire Terrier and
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DrAmstaff |
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Gaff Champion
07/03/08 12:18 PM |
LOL how in the hell a full drop ear could be a serious fault is beyond me. Why not concentrate on the lack of leg, no neck, and severely overdone bodies with
poor front assemblies before worrying about silly ears...
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trolldoll1 |
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Administration
Gaff Grand Champ
07/03/08 12:19 PM Master of her Universe |
Yeah Al if they were Pit Bulls or Amstaffs we could chop off those bad/incorrect ears and no one would ever know! ;-)
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dmvpits |
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Gaff Champion
07/03/08 2:31 PM |
the ear thing isnt as big a deal to me but if you have two dogs very close to standard and all you have left to judge on is ears then you have to take that into consideration...ears dont bother as much as bad tails because they are an extension of the spine...the bite thing being brought up was changed because the more you allow dogs with somewhat bad bites to produce you have that much more of a chance of producing severly bad bites if you use dogs with good bites then you have a smaller chance of producing dogs with bad bites and even less a chance of producing dogs with severly bad bites.....BUT THE POINT OF THE POST.....was bad ears and no matter the opinion if they are a big deal or not the fact remains that it is the standard and judges should be using the standard to judge by not there own opinion..............jmo DELMARVA KENNELS
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DrAmstaff |
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Gaff Champion
07/03/08 6:39 PM |
dmvpits wrote: I understand what you are saying but if every dog has faults then every dog that wins has faults. There are no fault free dogs. So today it is one with
"bad ears" tomorrow it is the one that has a non-functional front assembly that moves so horrid it makes you shiver, the next it is the man biter...
Welcome to showing dogs...lol.
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dmvpits |
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Gaff Champion
07/05/08 2:44 PM |
DrAmstaff wrote: i understand that no dogs are fault free but if you have two dogs that are pretty close in standard and one has bad ears to the standard and is more than a fault but is a serious fault that dog should not beat the other dog....but to be truthful with ourselves all dogs that win will have a fault....yes faults i know will be there but a serious faulted dog should not be winning ch., gr. ch., or breeds at all....which will have a snow ball affect on the breed as being a dog that is excepted when it shouldnt............JMO DELMARVA KENNELS
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DrAmstaff |
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Gaff Champion
07/05/08 6:30 PM |
If that is the case then no APBT with a gay tail or missing teeth should ever win. Both are serious faults. But then again there goes 95% of ALL Pit Bulls in
the UKC.
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 SoHoAPBT |
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Gaff Champion
07/07/08 6:10 AM |
Great point Al. I think it comes down, like Al said, to the overall funtionality of the dog. IMO a dog with say 4 non serious faults(ie:no angulation, snipey
head, dippy topline, and splayed feet) should not beat a dog with 1 serious fault (ie bad ears or a gay tail) even though that dogs one fault happens to be
serious. The better OVERALL dog should win. If the fault were that serious and the registry, whichever it happens to be, didnt want dogs with those faults
being put up then they would be disqualifying faults. Again just my opinion. Not to mention, different judges have different pet peaves. And then you always
have the fact that some judges dont have a clue to what the standard calls for. What are ya gonna do? Like someone has already said, get a better dog and beat
the one you have a problem with.
Amanda Stout
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KimJayPits |
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Gaff Grand Champ
07/07/08 9:26 AM |
I understand both sides. I mean what the heck does a bad ear set have to do with function? Then again a serious fault should be treated as such.
But if I were judging and the Staffy with the incorrect ears was more correct structurally than the ones with the correct ears, I would be more inclined to put up the more functional dog. So follow the standard or put up the structurally better dog. It is a catch 22 because putting up a serious fault shows disregard for the standard BUT putting up the lesser dog without a serious fault may be showing disregard for the breed. Why are the ears a serious fault? If there's no good reason maybe something needs to be done about the standard? I have a good friend that showed her APBT with ears that stood up and looked kind of goofy. She actually had judges laughing at her dog and she was told that her dog was nicer but the ears were incorrect? WTF??? She later had the dog cropped and granded the dog quickly. That just blew my mind and still does today!! JMO...and just to add I have no clue on what dogs are being talked about nor have I seen them! Just giving my opinion. 
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