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Show me where I said "movement is not important"? All I said was a judge picking dogs based solely on movement while ignoring type is wrong. But I will now say when judging a fighting dogs attributes, movement is not important. You have to have seen dogs fight, wrestle, play fight(in a small space), or something similar to understand. Your explanation of a dog moving "correctly for the show ring" means it doesn't get tired in a fight makes absolutely no sense. NO offense or anything. This is what I am talking about. Perfect example. You really have to understand fighting. That's like me saying I can jog around a ring for 10-15 seconds with a perfect gate so that means I won't get tired in a fight. LOL. That's two totally different things that have ZERO to do with each other. If you've ever been in a real fight, you know how tiring it is. I can jog around a track for an hour without getting exhausted. I can fight or grapple for 5 min. or so and I'm exhausted. Its two totally different things. A dog being able to fight for an hour plus is extreme conditioning and a dogs natural drive. Those two things being equal in the "perfect matchup"; means it comes down to the dog with the better physical traits for fighting. Ask any dog man and they will laugh at what you said. There are several huge misconceptions as far as physical traits go when compared to fighting. A dog being easty westy does not effect its fighting ability, nor does its color or tail. Just like a dog being able to show trot around a ring does not mean it won't get tired in a fight. LOL

Dogs put in a 15x15 square box or so to fight won't ever trot or run around the pit. The notion of "show movement" was created just for the show ring, just like longer flatter backs were created for smoother "showyer" fluid movement. People want show dogs to float because its pretty in the ring. This comes from other fanciers of different breeds influencing/changing the "show version" of the APBT into something totally different. This has no functional purpose for fighting dogs. A lot of the things that were added over the years to the UKC standard have no functional purpose and are for aesthetic reasons only. The original standards actually call for a square dog with "springy" movement. Obviously dogs that are longer than tall will move more fluidly than a square dog. Just like a dog with a flat top line will move more fluidly more often than not, when compared to the game type short back, short loin sloped croup backline and topline. That's common sense. The dog men that developed the standards could care less about a dog that single tracks, or converges or "floats", holds a certain pace, or side winds for that matter. They cared about moderate angled short back dogs with descent length of leg, and powerful rears, and a hard bite. Overdone dogs were either culled in the pit or culled in the yard. Most "old school" APBT's don't move like what you see in the show ring. Look at Legendary dogs like Chinaman, Jeep, Frisco, Eli, etc. Look at their offspring; they do not move like show dogs. Not even close. But going back to the previous conversation. If the dogs are supposedly being judged based on their original function then movement should be dead last on the list of deciding factors when judging a pit fighting dog.

Therefore your theory on good movement means a dog won't get tired as fast helping it in a dog fight is false. Here's an example for you. I know a nice game dog that if I try to jog him on a lead in a show trot, he looks retarded. He can walk and sprint just fine. But, if you try to show trot him, he does that hopping movement with his back legs trying to catch up to his front,doesn't move on the same plane, etc. I would bet any amount of money that the average UKC show dog with good movement would pass out an hour before this dog would ever think about stopping on a treadmill or any activity for that matter. Not to mention if this dog were put into a small room; you could line up all of your dogs one by one and they would not last more than a few minutes, nor would my "show" dogs for that matter. It would be hours before this dog with "bad movement" would get tired.

People should really study the past game dogs and try to learn from it rather than creating their own senseless theories about how fluid show trotting somehow helps a dogs conditioning for fighting, or that huge heads and chests would help for that matter, or a certain tail shape or curl. LOL. All I was getting at is that movement is far lass important than a dogs overall balance, length, conditioning, and moderation, and bite as far as physical fighting traits are concerned.

Here's another topic. Has anyone ever noticed that the ADBA standard calls for loose skin on the neck and chest? This serves a functional purpose for what the breed was bred to do. Nothing personal towards anyone; just talking dogs. JMO

dmvpits wrote:

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Here we go again.
YOU DIDNT SAY MOVEMENT WASNT IMPORTANT JUST MADE IT SEEM NOT TO BE AN EQUAL TO TYPE I don't think its as important. Type deals with the overall package of the dog. I would take the overall package over less than perfect show ring movement. AND I THINK REALLY THEY ARE BOTH EQUAL any true game dog person will disagreeAND DONT GET PICKED ENOUGH AND I AM SURE YOUR YOU THINK THOSE DOGS GOING AROUND THE RING ARE JUST SHOW TROTTING BUT
THE IDEA OF THERE MOVEMENT INTO THE STANDARD IS TO ONLY REPRESENT THAT OF THE ORIGINAL DOG...how many times do I have to explain this? show trotting did not exist when the origional standard was created. Showing dogs in conformation came many years later and still wasn't popular until rescent times. Show trotting has nothing to do with dogs fighting in a pit. PERIOD. ITs not a matter of opinion. --->THE FIGHTING DOG SHOULD HAVE BEEN BREED OUT OF THEM <-----HERE LIES THE PROBLEM. UNLESS YOU ARE IN THE ADBA BUT IF YOU TAKE ANY GOOD STANDARD ADBA DOG IT WILL HAVE SPRINGY MOVEMENT AND CONVERGE IN THE FRONT NOT SAYING THAT IS IMPORTANT BUT THEY WILL... Converging and trotting around the ring are too different things. I HAVE SEEN PLENTY OF GOOD ADBA STYLE DOGS AND THE MIGHT NOT HAVE THE SHOW TROTT AS YOU CALL IT BUT THEY DO HAVE AN EFFORTLESS MOVEMENT AND DO CONVERGE AND WILL GATE FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME ON A TREADMILL..The ADBA doesn't make dogs trot around in circles because its not important! You evidentally have not been to many ADBA shows. Of course; you just repeated what I said! ..THE MOVEMENT ON A TREADMILL IS ALMOST THE SAME AS THE GATE Thats false, this depends on what kind of treadmill and what dog. WHILE GOING AROUND THE RING ANY DOG I HAVE EVER SEEN WORKED ON A TREADMILL HAS NEVER BEEN RUNNING FULL OUT... I have and have had dogs that will run flat out for periods and change speeds back and forth. Not all dogs are the same. My dogs will run at different speeds depending on what kind of mill it is.IT IS A CONDITIONING TOOL...ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT PROPER MOVEMENT IN THE SHOW RING IS TO REPRESENT THAT OF OLD Negative on that one.Proper show ring movement has nothing to do with "dogs of old".BUT NOT BE THAT EXACTLY OR WE WOULD HAVE 35 POUND, NO BODY FAT DOGS RUNNING AROUND THE RINGPit bulls are supposed to have very little body fat. AND WOULD NO LONGER BE SHOWING OUR DOGS AND PRESENTING THEM IN SHOW you obviously don't know much about the breed to say something so unintelligent. Not all ADBA pit bulls are 35lbs. They do however actually conform to a standard size dog and know when to tell someone enough is enough. They don't just hand out ribbons because they only have crap to choose from. Isn't that what this post was all about? Witholding ribbons?FORM..SHOWING YOU DOG MEANS BRINGING YOU BEST TO THE RING TYPE AND MOVEMENT according to the breed standard right? Not what your preference or idea of the modern house pet should be. BUT ALSO BEING ABLE TO PRESENT YOUR DOG IN A WAY WHICH IS EASY TO SEE THE DOGS STRUCTURE NOT JUST LETTING THEM STAND THERE ON THERE OWN...I've seen plenty of people in ADBA present theri dogs really well. So you can't hide faults when moving a dog? LOL The best way to evaluate a dog is from all angles and to put your hands on the dog. This breed was not created to move over long distances. No one cared about that or movement. Thats not a matter of opinion. JMO YOU ARE RIGHT THE PROBLEM IS THE JUDGES AND THERE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE TO OUR BREED I AM UKC SHOW PERSON I DONT WANT TO SEE AN A.D.B.A STYLE DOG COME IN THE UKC RING AND WIN Thats the issue at hand. What is the UKC style? Atleast the ADBA and AKC stick to a type. UKC has no type consistency. Thats the whole point. Amstaffs and game bred ADBA dogs can win at the same show. But the point made was that if UKC claims they are judging this breed based on its original purpose(fighting dogs) then that does not match up with what is being shown. I just wish they would pick a type and stick with it. I THINK BOTH STANDARDS ARE DIFFERENT AND EVEN THOUGHT UKC AND AKC'S STANDARD IS NOT THAT FAR APART AKC HAS CHANGED WHAT IS WINNING IN THE RING WERE MOVEMENT IS NOT AN ISSUE ONLY TYPE...FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION IF A DOG CANT MOVE RIGHT IT ISNT BUILT RIGHTThat still makes no sense. Your idea of a dog being "built right" is subjective opinion. The problem is the judges ideas, your idea, and my idea are all different. THERE IS NO GETTING AROUND IT....Yeah but your definition of "Moving right" has nothing to do with the APBT function? What is your idea of function. OUR DOGS NOW ARE MADE TO WORK Made to work? what work? AND DO WHATEVER WE ASK THEM TO NOW THAT WE NO LONGER FIGHT THEM THE STANDARD HAS CHANGED TO A DEGREE WELL UKC'S HAS CHANGED But why would the standard change just because the dogs aren't matched anymore? So if you have hunting dogs that don't hunt, you should change the conformation? What sense does that make? LOL If you don't like the breed and respect its past then you are in this breed for the wrong reasons. Yes the UKC's has changed many times and will keep changing. I could care less. But my point is to say the UKC show dog is being judged based on its original purpose/function/work/job/ or whatever you want to call it is definitely false. Don't get me wrong, I like all three venues for different reasons but the UKC is just to lienient with their variety. No way an 80lb bully and a 40lb game dog should both win in the same UKC show.
Like Kelly said, talk to some old timers. You will get the best knowledge out of them. Talk to people that bred and competed with these dogs and experienced their original purpose. Talk to Tom Garner, or the Sorrells family, or the Holcombs, or Gary Hammonds. They are at a lot of shows.

dmvpits wrote:

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Kelley KS ASTs wrote:

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If you are really serious about learning about APBTs, then find some old school/timer ADBA breeders and goto the shows.

i want pit bulls to the ukc standard not the ADBA standard so i wouldnt want to get there opinion unless i wanted a game style dog....

So what is your idea of the UKC standard? I'm curious. I have no idea on how it can not be vague since you have ADBA style dogs, AKC type, and a combination of both; oh yeah and the bully dogs too. Its basically an anything goes policy. The judging is so inconsistent as a whole; how can you say what a "UKC type" dog is anymore. Therefore, how can ribbons be withheld when there is no definite type?

This is for the AKC people: Kim and whoever. Have you guys ever witnessed or heard of a dog having a ribbon with held in the AKC ring due to a serious major fault, then the same dog winning breed or group in the next show?